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-   -   how to get both treble and bass clefs? (http://www.notation.com/vb-forum/showthread.php?t=34291)

drpharmer 05-14-2018 02:54 AM

how to get both treble and bass clefs?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi!

Just started using the program. I imported a midi file of a piano track. When I transcribed I just get the bass clef. How can I get both clefs to show up? I looked though the help file, if it's there I missed it. I attached the not file so you can see.

Sherry C 05-14-2018 01:57 PM

Re: how to get both treble and bass clefs?
 
Hi,

I think you're looking for Staff -> Split hands

So out of curiosity, what terms did you look for when searching the Users Guide? It's always helpful to us to know how our musicians are thinking about things like this so that we can make the software and the documentation more musician friendly.

ttfn,
Sherry

Sherry C 05-14-2018 02:05 PM

Re: how to get both treble and bass clefs?
 
p.s. I should also add that I'm not sure about the source, but this particular file was created without reference to the MIDI metronome, so the notation is going to be, um, "interesting".

You can try using the ReBar feature to set the barlines at more appropriate locations, especially since there seems to be a fair bit of rubato throughout the song. I slowed the initial tempo to about half (the default is 120 because there was apparently no tempo set or recorded for the song file either.)

Given the above, I suspect that the MIDI file was either created by some music scanning software or (more likely) an attempt at audio-to-MIDI.

So there is a good bit of work that will need to be done on this file, but Composer does have the tools to do it.

ttfn,
Sherry

drpharmer 05-14-2018 03:10 PM

Re: how to get both treble and bass clefs?
 
Hi Sherry!

You are correct I tried an audio to MIDI conversion. So are you saying that all audio to MIDI conversions will be highly inaccurate?

So what I like to do is learn tunes that have been recorded by great players. I have done this dozens of times. I have been using Anthem/Muse, which is highly inaccurate but serves as a starting point and then I improve accuracy with Transcribe. I am not interested in tempo, I just want accurate pitch with notes separated on the staff, I learn the tune by playing along with the recording.

I decided to try Melodyne (trial version)/Notation Player to see if the initial audio conversion accuracy could be improved, but based on the results (in the attachment in the original message) Melodyne was not better than Anthem, even if I could split hands. If you know a better way to do this I am all ears! I spend a lot of time transcribing tunes (I'm retired).

I suspect the reason I can't split hands is because I am using the wrong Notation product (Player instead of composer). Unless I can find a more accurate audio to MIDI program, I don't think Notation can help me. But I sincerely appreciate the response.

Regards

Sherry C 05-14-2018 03:41 PM

Re: how to get both treble and bass clefs?
 
Hi,

Quote:

Originally Posted by drpharmer (Post 68934)
So are you saying that all audio to MIDI conversions will be highly inaccurate?

Unfortunately pretty much. It's a really complex task if you stop and think about it, and our ears and brains are the best tools on the planet for the job.

Taking any audio file and trying to separate out

  • the instruments or voices (different instruments/voices playing the same note pitch or chordal notes),
  • the notes themselves (determining what is a root note versus the harmonics),
  • the root pitch (versus vibrato or reverb),
  • the duration (whether the note is still playing or if that’s some ringing echo in the recording)
  • and a host of other nuances
is a very, very difficult technological task.

Our ears and brains work in an incredibly complex way to discern all these aspects of music.

Getting a program to do the same thing, and then produce a MIDI file (the “directions” for playing the piece) so that we can get sheet music is still a goal yet to be fully realized. There are a number of programs that claim to do this, but in all the testing we’ve done, none of them do a good enough job to produce a MIDI that doesn’t still need a lot of work to give decent sheet music.

Even the Melodyne Editor, which does an absolutely amazing job of separating audio tones, still doesn’t give a very good MIDI file for getting sheet music. It separates out a lot of the individual audio elements, but still can't differentiate between different instruments to put them into their own MIDI track/staff, and the MIDI output is not in any sort of usable timing format.

It's not that smart folks aren't trying their best, it's just a very difficult task to do well.

Your method of using a tool to help with getting proper pitches and then using Transcribe (which I also use :) ) is a great way to learn tunes from audio recordings.

Quote:

I suspect the reason I can't split hands is because I am using the wrong Notation product (Player instead of composer).
Correct - our Player is just that, a player for MIDI, Karaoke (.kar) and our own NoteSoft (.not) files that will show you the notation "as is." It would take Notation Composer to work on a file like the "Donna Lee" that you've attached and get it into anything usable.

All that said, there are actually quite a few (lots of thousands) really good MIDI files out there on the internet (and free!) that you may find helpful for learning new songs in Composer or Musician. I've used a lot of such files myself for learning new songs, and they're typically done with a full complement of instruments which is fun, because I can mute the part I want to play and still have the other members of "the band" play along. I can speed them up or slow them down at will, too. Lots of fun :)

ttfn,
Sherry

drpharmer 05-14-2018 04:31 PM

Re: how to get both treble and bass clefs?
 
Hi Sherry!

You have explained it well, you would be an excellent educator!

We have come a long way, just imagine how hard transcription was in the old days when the only tool I had was a Marantz tape player that had a variable speed dial. All the way down was half speed (one octave lower), and the bass was a guess at best.

Good Luck!


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